Trimble Business Center

Hey guys, I'm looking for some guidance.

I keep running into the problem of getting autocad packages from engineering firms without the xrefs and aecc objects exploded. Its usually more of an inconvenience, because I just request a new file with the autocad objects exploded and they're happy to oblige. Sometimes they're timely, sometimes it takes a few days for a turnaround. The odd time when its a few day turnaround causes the project managers some headaches (and me looking like the bad guy.) I even got into it with one drafter who asked why I'm using such an inferior and out-of-date software and he refused to help me!

So my question is, what are my options for dealing with the autocad objects myself? I have zero experience with Civil 3D, the extent of my autocad knowledge is the research I did to find out why the objects won't work with business center. Getting Civil 3D isn't really an option for 2 reasons. Firstly I've grown to love Business Center and secondly I work for a smaller construction company and I just can't justify the cost of Civil 3D (and the learning curve) to explode the xrefs for 2 or 3 projects a year where this is an issue. Am I left to the mercy of the engineering firms?

Hi Jason,

From my research, I don't see an alternative to your current workflow, but I have contacted our TBC developers with Civil 3D expertise about your dilemma. If they provide any insights, I will post them here.

David

Jason,

Here is a reply I got from development: 

This response from development is correct.  I have ran into this several times in the last couple years and having the engineer change the proxygraphics setting to 1 fixes the problem for me.

If you have an Engineer that will not reset these things for you, find a service provider that can do it for you - i.e. someone that has a copy of Civil 3D that for a fee would do what is needed to the file to make it readable. 

At some point I will have a guy on my team that has such a license and would do that for you for a fee if you are interested - these things typically don't take long, but it is time, and sometimes it takes more than one step to get it right etc.

If interested, let me know by email and I will see what we can do to assist you.  (alan.sharp@rockpilesolutions.com)

I agree that it is a pain.

Alan 

I don't know for sure if it is the same issue. I would get auto cad files from designers/engineers and they would send them as auto cad 2020 or last year 2019 version. TBC would have some issues with this new of a cad drawing. I would explain to who ever was sending the files if they could save the cad drawing as a 2014 cad file (might have to walk them through it) then send it to me. Other times if it is a surface I would ask that they export out the LandXML file out and send that separately from the cad ( once again I would walk them through how to export an XML file). 

No, I don't think that's the problem. The text file that accompanies the export package says the file was converted to autocad 2010. Maybe they didn't have to go that far backward though. Its beginning to look like gaining some Civil 3D knowledge would help me along.

I think Alan had a good suggestion and this is a service that is really needed among TBC users.  If the fee was reasonable and could be converted by someone who was familiar with TBC it would be even better.

My guess is that to Review provided CAD data, take a look at the different

settings and set things as they need to be in Civil 3D and resave the files

and then open them in TBC to verify that what you see in TBC matches what

is in C3D (as much as possible) is potentially up to 1 hours work in most

cases. To do that at short notice (ie Priority Return), I would charge

$100/Cad File Set - if there were many CAD files to look at then we could

be talking more time and more work etc.

If you want a Service like that for that kind of fee,we could do that for

you. We would review the needed processes and provide it as a service -

create an Account for you, Pay by PayPal or Credit Card, Upload the Files,

we process them and post the corrected files for you in the same Portal for

download.

Alan

That $100 fee is quite reasonable. Possibly low if many drawings involved.

Think about it, C3d costs between $1200 and $2700 a year, depending how you own it, and that is 12 to 27 projects.

If I were a TBC only outfit, I would totally develop a relationship with a competent C3D team and work out fees.

Note that you can visit the autodesk civil3d forum and find all kinds or folks happy to help. I still recommend a paid relationship with people you trust. You will need some back and forth as complex stuff requires focus and time/money.

I have clients that run into Civil 3D objects all the time. So they send the files over to me, I convert them and send them back. Let me know if you can not find someone to help you.

I'm happy to see so many people willing to help! It's greatly appreciated!  So am I asking for a lot when I ask to be able to see the objects? Or is it something that maybe someone new to Civil 3D would have a hard time with? Is it a lot of work, or maybe something that not many drafters would be familiar with? My company does 10 - 12 projects a year, and I may have trouble with only 2 of them. Particularly one drafter it seems.

Jason, I have never had anyone complain when asking them to switch the proxygraphics setting to 1 for me in the past.  I don’t think you are asking for much by requesting this.  I know a couple of the engineers that I have done this with and they would have said something if it was an inconvenience to them.

Darren Fry

Project Manager / Estimator

Cell: 319-360-1587

Office: 319-377-3179

305 44th St.

Marion, IA 52302

Not really - Autodesk has this setting in AutoCAD. Not many Engineers know

it exists or what it does. If you ask them to Set the proxygraphics

Variable to 1 and resave the DWG it is easy to do and takes a few seconds.

That makes the extended objects from Civil 3D available in the DWG as Proxy

Objects (Close Approximation Replacement Objects), because AutoCAD DWG does

not fully understand the Extended Civil 3D Objects or the core engines that

create them - look at it like TBC builds a Corridor. The Corridor builds a

Surface and Linework. To send data to AutoCAD the Linework can go out as

CAD objects (with some chording tweaks to handle AutoCADs inability to

handle 3D Curve Geometry), the Alignment we send as a Chorded Line because

AutoCAD doesnt understand Spirals or Vertical Curves or Stations or Station

Equations, and the Surface we send out as 3D Faces because AutoCAD doesnt

understand Surfaces only 3D Faces. If we want to send the same data to

Civil 3D then we can use LandXML that understands TIN Models and Alignments

and Linework and Points and is a richer exchange of Model Data - but we

still cannot send a Corridor Model because a Civil3D Corridor and a TBC

Corridor are completely different in terms of the way that they are put

together, so we send Surfaces and ALignments and Linework which is "Good

Enough" for the share data [provided the Receiver doesnt want to edit or

tweak the corridor). In that event we need to send them the VCE or VCL File

and they need TBC to read our files using TBC. Same in Reverse - If the

Source User is using Civil 3D there is a lot of their data in C3D that

AutoCAD doesnt understand (while they work together, you need C3D in

AutoCAD to fully understand the data). The DWG file has the extended data

in it but we cannot read it as we are only able to read the Drawing part

(the AutoCAD part). AutoCAD added the proxyGraphics setting to allow

Extended Objects to be able to be seen in AutoCAD and also in DWG True View

without having to need C3D, but they are Proxy Objects - Objects that look

kind of the same and have similar or close to actual properties, but are

approximations of the original objects because AutoCAD itself has no idea

what the originals really are or the tools to display and edit them (it is

just a CAD system) - only C3D in AutoCAD knows that. If the Proxy Graphics

Setting is OFF or set to 0 then we dont see the proxy objects at all - if

it is set to ON or 1 then we get the Proxy Objects and have something to

work with and those are close to but not the same as the original objects.

This is the bulk of your problem. The other problems are XREFs - XREfs are

External Files referenced into a Drawing DWG in AutoCAD. This allows

several CAD DWG Files to be viewed together in AutoCAD without having to

merge the data into one DWG. If you get just one DWG that references other

files and you dont get those then you cannot see the data because it is in

other files that you dont have. The AutoCAD user can write a new DWG with

all the XREF Data and the Current File Data into the new file, and if they

send you that then you can see all the data that they were working with.

Many Engineers forget to send you all the DWGs or Forget to create a New

DWG which combines all of the data you need into one file. We cannot

magically create data that we dont have because it is in other files that

were not sent to you.

There are other issues but these are the big 2 and they are easy to solve

by the Engineer or anyone that has a Civil3D license - set the

Proxygraphics Variable to 1 and save all the XREFs into one new DWG for the

deliverable, or save ll the DWGs for the Project and send them all as the

deliverable (all with the Prioxygraphic variable set to 1).

I hope that helps

Alan

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:15 PM jason@b-jcontracting.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

Alan, thx for so much info. Hopefully I did not miss parts of it.

To the OP, the talk of setting proxygraphics to 1 seems like potentially missing the mark to me. It may be perfect if you just need contours or basic linework. I live in the Autodesk/Bricsys world (yah, its both companies now), and would sum up the workflow like this:

1) If you need alignments (H and V) and surfaces, have someone with civil3d export that as landxml.

2) If you just need linework derived from the c3d data, use the trueview to explode the c3d objects so you get native dwg stuff to pull into TBC. You do not want TBC trying to read proxy objects (given that trueview is free,take the low fruit..)

The gap in all this, is major. Item 1 needs a c3d seat. Item 2 relies on the object style being set to show what you wanted in c3d. That needs a c3d seat.

I would not even try to deal with c3d corridors. If you are that deep, rebuild them from alignments and sections on the plans.

The point is, I don't think you can properly interact with a c3d based team without either having c3d and knowing it, or being able to talk to the team that sent the c3d items, and having them landxml things or set the styles as needed in the dwg so you can trueview explode them.

I can say our company, Hunsaker & Associates, strives to provide the data in format needed to contractor and surveyor. No client should be happy with an engineer that doesn't. I can only apologize for the civil3d mess. The autodesk technical people are top notch, no question. Its the business end that stopped things short of where they should be. Hang in there.

Thanks for the offer Mike.  Is is possible at all to clean up these files with The ACad TrueView app?  I know you can save to legacy versions but not sure how much that helps.

No True View doesnt do any of the Cleanup on a file

Alan

As Alan stated trueview doesn't do any cleanup but I use the 2019 version all the time to convert drawings and AEC objects so TBC can clean it up. Once you add the file into DWG convert you just need to go into the conversion setup and change the settings to the format you want and if AEC objects are present you can have it convert them also. It saves me a lot of time and headache not having to explain what I need done. hope that helps.

Let me know if this helps you.

OK now I thought I heard 2 different answers here to the questions of dealing with AECC files.  Alan says original C3D files must be saved as proxy set to 1 to be imported into TBC because TrueView can't do it.  Mike says TrueView 2020 CAN do it by adjusting settings and by saving to a legacy version of ACAD.  

So to summarize there are 2 ways to get complete C3D files into TBC.  Right??? 

I cannot comment on the Trueview approach - I dont think you can do the Set

Proxy Graphics function in Trueview - you can save a DWG to an Oder Version

as needed to downgrade a file - if that fixes the issue on Proxy Graphics I

am glad to hear that but I cannot comment as I have never done that

personally - I will look into it.

Alan

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:44 PM mlt@linkzone.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

AutoCad has Civil 3D object enablers that you can download and install into AutoCad LT. I have been using them since I was with another software for about 9 years now. Once installed, you would bring in the CAD files into AutoCad LT, and do an explode all. The object enabler at that time converts all the objects to standard line types. You would then save the file as a 2010-2017 DWG. Import into TBC and you should be all set.

What I have been told, is that using the conversion in TrueView like in my video. They automatically do this process for you.

I know my clients have had great success with it.

Also note that Bricscad, which is a competing dwg editor to acad, has civil3d object enablers (OE's) also. Bricscad is $1000 a seat, and $300 sub per year, which is cheaper than acad LT last time I checked.

Something to note here - proxy objects are not great. When custom objects like AECC items are in a dwg, and the object enablers are not available, acad and bcad show them using the original entities the custom entities were derived from.

So surface contours likely are extended polylines under the hood, so you get polylines, if show proxy objects is on.

I never want that though. I want the entities from exploding the fully read AEC objects. That is much better, as sometimes there is no display of AECC objects if OE's are not available.

You can do that in autocad with Etransmit, Dwg Convert, or in civil3d, the Batch Converter.

I believe the civil3d OE's need to be installed to do that, they are free though.

In Bricscad, you would have to open each drawing and run explode command, it works though.

But that leaves you needing bricscad or autocad, not free I know.

For a free tool, the autodesk TrueView can convert the drawings and explode the AEC objects.

Note that the option to do so does not show unless the drawing has AEC objects.

Its in there though. Don't settle for proxy objects.

Based on Mike T video - it looks like Trueview 2021 actually does something here that helps - thanks to Mike for the video - I will try that next time I get one of these - may save you all from getting access to a license of Civil 3D or using a service to process your data. 

I will try that out some next week to see what we can do differently now!

Alan

I would like to make a disclaimer to my original post.

The conversion with TrueView MAY NOT WORK WITH EVERY FILE. 

Mike, you don't define what "work" means, but it actually does not matter as its a true statement on many levels.

The conversion may just fail - no converted file.

The conversion may not contain what would be considered proper behavior - moved or missing items for various reasons.

The conversion may not have what you wanted - the style of the C3d objects was not set to your needs back in c3d.

I almost don't see how a TBC team can properly work with a Civil3D team without some communication.

In particular, DONT remake a civil3d surface from contours, just DONT. Get the landxml or 3d faces of real surface.

James, the Civil 3D objects that I'm referring to are mostly the ones used to represent municipal services, such as watermain valves, curb stops, manholes, etc and I'm responsible for that layout. The work my company does is 2/3 sewer and watermain and 1/3 earthwork. So the placement of the symbols isn't a priority, or to be able to interact with them really, I just need them to be visible. 

Communicating with the engineers CAD department was difficult up to this point, mostly because of my lack of Civil 3D knowledge and their lack of construction knowledge. Since I've taken it upon myself to learn more about C3D it's becoming easier now that I can speak more of their language. They still don't know much about construction, and I doubt they've bought a pair of work boots yet, but it's getting easier thanks to everyone here!

Hi Jason,

That actually can be a jungle. The horizontal linework could be polylines, alignments, or pipe networkobjects.

The vertical could be regular acad text in plan, regular lines in profile, c3d profile, or pipe networks shown in profile.

Surfaces may have boundary, contours, and tris shown, or not shown at all or at wrong contour interval.

I've dealt with all of those, and regularly perform 3d utility and road modeling services for contractors and clients, which means getting all that into alignments in my tools, which are proprietary since C3D is really not suitable for...so many things.

You will have several workflows depending what the original files have.

Then just wait til you get large surfaces from Carlson software, as landxml. Keep a few of our names handy, as typically the answers are easy, but knowing what the answers are NOT, is half the trick. Normally for me, batch converting the drawings before looking at in C3d is not an answer. Its the second thing you do once you understand the data being provided.

Hang in there.

This is turning out to be a lively topic.  I'm curious, James,  why wouldn't you remake a TBC surface from C3D linework?  There might be good reasons to but I don't know what they are.  Our work is mostly all earthwork and contours are on the final set of approved pdf plans.  Back in the day, before machine control when all the operator had were stakes and a bubble in his ass, he just had to make it look good and work as designed.  The machines blade width dictates the final product in many situations.  I know with TBC, if I build a berm or swale corridor model using alignment and cross section parameters from the plans and then explode it and create contours they  don't necessarily really match up with the contours SHOWN on the plans.  So you can get contradictions on some of the minutia.  Then it comes time to step back and discern what is trying to be accomplished and the precision necessary for the design to work according to its intended objective.

I think its cool that TBC is adding all this functionality which is pushing it into a design tool but for machine control less is more.                             

Hi Mark, Yes, and it's not really a TBC only topic. Anyone that deals with civil teams on whatever software is looking to avoid remaking data. So with surfaces, they are a bunch of triangles, as you know. If you can get those, in any form, use them for your surface. Each project I deal with involves investigating what data and linework is available, and how to harvest it into alignments and surfaces. We then build our own versions of corridors, using in house tools I wrote.

There is long history on this. I've been bridging gaps for 25 years now.

In the end, you want alignments from pure tangents, arcs, and PVIs, then surfaces from triangles, not re-triangulated contours.

Like you say though, contractors need real models to a certain detail level to build. Engineers need models to make parts of linework they then splice with others to make nice base files for plan approval. I know both workflows, and have talked to contractors to see where our surfaces are acceptable for their machine grading, and where ours are not good enough.

We don't argue. They are competent and I agree with their conclusions. The fact is, civil plans are partially schematic. This is on purpose, to simplify certain things. We don't model every little local depression.

I could go on and on, and know the gaps in making surfaces from points clouds and so on. There are many rabbit holes and I happen to like them. "Not nasty, dirty, wet holes, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet dry, bare, sandy holes with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: These are hobbit-holes, and that means comfort". To me at least.

Sometimes harvesting the data correctly is a big, big deal. I've faced that and have lots of strategies because I'm paid to.

Anyway, don't think this is simple. You triangulate a surface from contours and all the sharp edges are thrashed.

Sorry for long posts, I just know solutions exist to so many things and want to help.

Hi Mike can you show me a link to this video please?

An thank you.

Hello all, some additional information on this subject.

1. The Proxygraphic Variable has to be set to 1 in the original DWG for TrueView 2021 to explode them into usable CAD objects for TBC. If it is set to 0 Trueview will not convert the AECC Objects into basics CAD elements. 
2. If the DWG has this variable set to 1 then you do not need to take it into TrueView and convert it (i.e. exploding the AECC Objects).
3. If the DWG has its variable set to 1 then simply import the DWG into TBC (Again there is no need to go through TrueVIew). Doing so provides zero value and actually loses some information. Directly importing a DWG with the ProxyGraphic Variable set to 1 into TBC actually provides better results. (There is an known issue with 2017 Civil 3D DWGs see next paragraph.)
4. Additionally:
   1. There is a known issue with Civil 3D 2017, Autocad Civil 3D DWGs that were originally created and saved in AutoCAD Civil 3D version 2017 , even with the Proxygraphics variable set to 1 may not properly import into TBC. So the fix for this is to open the DWG in another version of  Civil 3D (2019 or 2020 for example) and Save the DWG with the Proxygraphic set to 1)  or use TrueView 2021 to save the drawing (that already has the Proxygraphics Variable set to 1 as a Newer Version of DWG, for example 2018 or 2019) or explode AEC object as suggested in the video. 
   2. Civil 3D Features Line Objects will lose their Elevation Values, This is the case in both directly importing to TBC or taking to TrueView and Converting (Exploding). Feature Lines can contain 3D Arcs and maintain their Arc Geometry just like TBC LineStrings. When the Proxygraphic is set to 1 and imported into TBC the Feature Lines lose their elevations however maintain their arc geometry, this is a better trade off than having tessellated curves with elevations that can be achieved if the DWG was Exported form Civil 3D using the Export Civil 3D Command, which is different than the "Save As..." or "Export As..." commands.
   3. There are also certain CAD Objects (which are not AECC Objects) Such as Multi-Leader Blocks and or dynamic blocks that do not import into TBC regardless of the Proxygraphic variable setting.
   4. Dealing with Xrefs and Data References is another issue and this depends completely on how the Civil Engineer has setup their CAD Standards. Most have multiple DWG files that are XREF/DREF'd (DREF is a Data Shortcut used by Civil 3D to share Objects like Surfaces, Alignments Corridors, etc...)

I've been documenting this and providing details in the following Knowledge App you can get access to by using this Access Code:  Design Data Interoperabilty

All: Here in BC the Highways Ministry demands that all design and construction reporting (survey, quantities etc), be done in Civil 3D. Since we have only used TBC for construction I have had to grapple with getting the two systems to communicate. Most C3D stuff I receive to work with is, well, crap. Usually what I receive has been done by a junior tech trainee so standards are all over the map. The drawings have been rubber stamped by an engineer who is equally in the dark of what is required for us to build. Enough whining.

I now run a Civil 3D seat to do my own importing and exporting to work in TBC. I gave up trying to get what I needed from the engineer. Too slow, too painful.

For those that just need Civil 3D drawings processed for use in TBC I can do that. I can do it for a very reasonable cost and turn it around quickly as much of the time my Civil 3D seat is "idling" in the background when I don't need it.

Now, if you want data prep editing done in Civil 3D that is a different thing. I can do it, no problem, but would have to charge more for my time.

You can direct message me, call me etc if you need help.

Marshall