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Offsetting a surface or contours

  • 1.  Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 09-21-2018 09:24

    Is there a way to offset a surface or contours perpendicular to the slope of the existing surface/contours?

     

    I know that contour elevations can be changed using the "Change Elevation" function under the "Edit" tab, but this command changes the elevation in a vertical direction, not perpendicular to slope.

     

    Thanks,

    Brent



  • 2.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 09-24-2018 13:03

    Brent

    You can do this as follows - however be aware that this is not a precise solution because a 3D TIN model is a complex beast to offset all faces perpendicular to the faces because each TIN Node is in at least 2 or more triangles, and you would have to compute the Perpendicular points to not just all of the face nodes but also create additional nodes around each node to accurately model the perpendicular surface (this would bloat a surface enormously and is extremely difficult to do this in 3D and achieve any form of accurate surface. However this is what I would do.

     

    1) I would densify the source surface first (typically by creating a surface elevation grid at e.g. 10' intervals across the surface and then use Explode to convert it to Points and then add the created points to the original surface to increase the density of points in the model (use Add / remove Surface Members).

     

    2) Create a Surface Edge Breakline around the Surface or a boundary around the area(s) of the surface that you are interested in. If you create boundaries, you should then use the Change Elevation command and set the elevation of the Boundary Line to that of the Surface with no vertical delta. This effectively drapes the boundary line on the surface.

     

    3) Check the Properties of the Boundary / Edge Breakline and set the Surface Sharpness property to Sharp and Texture Boundary

     

    4) Add the Edge Breakline and or the Boundary Lines to the target surface (which you are going to offset)

     

    5) Create a Material in the MSI Manager under the Earthen Section with a name that you can easily find e.g. Clay Lining or Toposoil Strip

     

    6) Create a Site Improvement in the MSI Manager called Topsoil Strip, in there you can set by Perpendicular Offset and you can define one layer of material at the thickness you want using the Material you created in (5) above.

     

    7) From the Surface Menu use the Apply Surface Site Improvement command (Site Improvement) - select your target / reference surface, Give the Site Improvement a Name like Clay Lining Base or Topsoil Strip Base, place the Site Improvement "Point" on a layer called SITE - Site Improvement Markers (or similar), select the Site Improvement that you created in (6) above and then place one dot in each of the boundary areas. Note that because the lines have the Texture Boundary Property they will limit where the site improvement is applied.

     

    8) Now you can use the Create Subgrade Surface command from the Surface Menu to create the adjusted surface - give it the same name as you used for the Site Improvement Name in (6) above e.g. Base of Clay Lining select the reference surface and then select the Site Improvement for which you want to create the Bottom Surface from the list in the Create Surface at part of the dialog. Select the Bottom of surface if you want its base (which you do)

     

    This will generate a Subgrade Surface that you can review in Surface Slicer or add to a Corridor Model. In the Slicer or Template or Cross Section Editors you need no vertical exaggeration (so it is not distorted, and you should see that the surface is pretty uniform thickness. Where there are sharp grade breaks in the reference surface, you will find that from the break either side to the next point in the model the thickness may vary slightly, however for quantity purposes you will find that this is more accurate than using the Vertical method (for applications like Clay Linings in Landfill Cells etc.

     

    We do place a Caveat on this that it should be used for Quantities only and not for stakeout purposes - staking the Finished Grade and then allowing machine operators to correct for Perp is better than using the subgrade surface here (unless you feel that is accurate enough for your purposes - it will be good on planar or rolling terrain, however around sharp breaks it will be less accurate around the breaks for the reasons outlines at the start of this response. For steps (near vertical jumps in the surface or very steep surface elements) it will likely be more incorrect) than on shallow or intermediate slopes. For slopes of any length and up to 45 degrees it will generally give pretty good results.

     

     

    Here is an example where I modeled it without densification across an area of moderate slopes with Perp Offset of 8"

     

    Below is the same area with a Vertical Offset of 8" (the difference is subtle but when seen during the process and when measured is more accurate above than below if you want an 8" Perpendicular offset.

     

     

    Alan



  • 3.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 09-24-2018 17:39

    Alan,

    Thanks so much for the guidance. I can’t wait to try out your suggestions.

    Regards,

    Brent Cofer

     

    Sent from my iPhone



  • 4.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 10-01-2018 14:05
      |   view attached

    Alan,

    Thanks again for sharing this procedure for offsetting  surfaces.

    I’m a fairly new BC user and I haven’t gotten in to using the MSI Manager. With that said, is there a way to accomplish perpendicularly offsetting a surface without using the MSI Manager? I was doing well until I got to the step in the process that involved using the MSI Manager.

    Thank you,

     

    Brent Cofer, PE, RLS

     

     

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  • 5.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 10-01-2018 15:57

    Not that I am aware of. The MSI Manager workflow I have captured for you so that you can better follow along - I have also captured the entire process to try and show you the result and how to do all of the steps. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask again.

     

     

    Alan



  • 6.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 10-09-2018 14:45

    Alan,

    I would like to get some advice from Trimble regarding computer hardware recommendations for running Business Center. We have had some issues with a couple of our employees computers not running business center very well at all. Is that something that you or someone else within Trimble could help me with?

     

    Thanks,

    Brent

     

     

    Sent from my iPhone



  • 7.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 08-22-2019 19:27

    Hi Alan,

    How do I offset a surface upwards perpendicularly? Or doing a site improvement above the surface not subgrade?

     

    I flew the drone over this landfill area slopes and created a surface (will be my subgrade) from Point Clouds and now I want to offset that surface, 1ft above perpendicularly so I can get another surface that will be my finish grades.

     

     

    Thanks 

    Eric C.



  • 8.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 08-24-2019 08:48

    Perp Offset of a surface is not at all simple Eric - I was awake much of last night pondering this question and have a couple of ideas that I want to try out and maybe prototype to see if they could work - because when you come up perp everything changes position and height things will cross over and separate depending on the angles between the triangles - it will be a nightmare to compute using the source data - however you could potentially Grid the data and work with that thereby eliminating the cross overs or we could do it using triangle centroids and normal to the triangle projection or we could potentially do it with draped section lines and use the UCS capability and a revised offset line command to offset in the c

    Vertical planes of the UCS lines. I agree that this would be a good thing to solve - but it is highly prone to error - especially on drone or lifer density data and surveyed surfaces vs Design surfaces which are more uniform

     

    I will chat to a couple people over the next week to see if we could come up with something for this

     

    Alan

     

    Alan

     

    Sent from my iPhone



  • 9.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 08-24-2019 13:26

    You can use offset surface and use a boundary to offset the surface upwards to create a "site improvement" above a surface

     

    Can you give me an example of a site improvement above a surface so I can discuss with team here why we should allow a -ve depth site improvement - I guess concrete slab could be one example but would like to know what you are thinking here?

     

    Alan

     

    Sent from my iPhone



  • 10.  Re: Offsetting a surface or contours

    Posted 08-25-2019 08:23

    If we grid the surface at 2x the perp Offset and then triangulate and then find the centroid of each triangle and compute a point normal to the triangle at the perp Offset and then create a surface from that set of points we may get close to what you are looking for - it will however round off corners using this method - will that be of any use?

     

    I tried sections but sections running perpendicular to a Slope will give a different answer to sections running parallel with a Slope and so you would. It get a perfectly perpendicular result in that case so the TIN method I think is most likely to do the best job - I think we have to Grid the data to get a set of uniform points - and I am suggesting 2x minimum Grid size to the offset distance / because then the centroid should will be at half that and when you have a 2:1 Slope you need the spacing to be at least 2x offset to not get any overlaps of points -

     

    I think this may work as a solution - will see if I can get a TML written to do this

     

    Alan

     

    Sent from my iPhone