Trimble Business Center

OK, this is a rant from a long time user (and fan) of Trimble Business Center. Every time I install an updated version of the software I am, once again, disappointed. I am a power user of some other very expensive, very sophisticated software and NONE of them have these types of issues. Considering the tens of thousands of dollars invested over the years it makes me wonder why I continue...

1) No other software I know of resets all customizations EVERY time there is even a minor update. Make the customizations "Sticky". All other software does it.

2) No other software I know recommends running a "cleanup utility" before installing an update. If TBC makes such a mess of things that a cleanup is required before installing an update, at least make it part of the installation.

3) No other software requires a third party solution (Rockpile in this case) to have a choice of color schemes for the interface. Light and Dark. Who made that decision to remove the Dark theme?

4) My opinion of the "new" Light interface is not very good. In fact the interface is awful IMO. Staring at a pair of 32" white screens for 10 hours is painful. The light theme looks like a crappy smartphone interface. I'll stop there before I really get going...

5) The Layer Manager: functionally it is pretty good. The size I make it is even "sticky" (of course until the next update). I posted this request 2 years ago:

"Would it be possible to make the column widths in Layer Manager adjustable (or auto-fit something like like Excel columns)? Then, make the adjusted column widths persistent so that when a particular project is re-opened the column widths are the same?

An alternate could be to make the Layer Color, Line Style, Line Weight, and Display Priority columns "auto fit" and the Layer Name and Group Layer adjustable.

I notice also that the "Protect" Column heading is truncated because the column is too narrow by default to show the full word.

The delete key doesn't work when editing group names."

6) Interface consistency. Others call this usability. I am used to the quirks of TBC and some would say it's no big deal but, for example. drop down menus behave inconsistently. Some you can click the field and get the drop down immediately, others you have to click the carat (inverted triangle) or double click the field for the options to appear. Basic stuff. This is particularly noticeable on large 4K monitors where carats are tiny little icons...

7) 4K monitor support. Basically it is the bare minimum. With everything set to use "large" icons, windows scaling set to 150 (recommended) there are still icons and labels on the interface that are barely readable or not consistent in size.

I 'll stop there. Don't misunderstand. I am a big fan of the software. Like many on this forum I use it every day, often all day. When I see fundamental features like the Layer Manager left "as is" for update after update, or no sticky customizations etc it bugs the hell out of me.

Overall, my opinion of the interface is that it is getting "ragged". Great feature updates override the usability of the interface. I think it's time for the development team to step back and do a cleanup. Heck, maybe they have a utility for that...

Very best regards,

Marshall

PS: I have attached a screen shot of an Autodesk interface as an example. This is a 4K screen grab. Note the detail and consistency across the screen, the easy to see icons, the easy to look at color theme. For the cost, TBC should be at least this good IMO.

Marshall

I will forward your email to Trimble Product Management for review.

I will comment on one of your bullet items

The Cleanup Utility is not required every time you do a new installation. I install every day and I never use it from one version to the next unless I want to test a totally clean installation process like the one we did for the RPS Macro Command Update in July.

The only time we recommend it is if someone is having problems with installation not working correctly on their computer - that can be caused by many elements outside of our control and it is a last resort that does clean out everything related to TBC - however it is just as likely that some other application installed on the computer has created the issue or that the user has not updated Windows, their Graphics Drivers or their BIOS/System Drivers etc as those are all common issues that we have to deal with. Each release is tested to work on latest Windows etc tools at that time of release, however updates come out afterwards and in between our releases other products that are installed may install later or newer versions of system tools that we use - we try to mitigate the problems that they may cause however we will never get them all and all software products suffer from this issue to some degree.

The other points I will leave to Trimble Product Management to answer as I cannot comment on these at all.

Alan

Alan: as usual you are the most prompt to respond. Much appreciated. Thanks for clarifying the use of the Cleanup Utility. I have only ever used it once for a clean 5.3 installation. All other times I have installed TBC (going a long way back!) and I have had no issues.

Strike Line item 2 above.

Thanks again,

Best regards,

Marshall

I agree with the 4K support.

100% agree with all items

especially needing to rebuild all the custom menus for every update

I just got 5.20 menus and setting the way they were before, I don't have the time or energy to update to 5.31

The software is indispensable, I use it every day and couldn't run my grading business without it ...

but, sometimes it is a pain in the a??

I would rather see all the various user interface items fixed ,rather than than more updates with new features

Here are a few UI/UX that I think would help speed up some things.

• Layer Manager - Filter
  • A way to filter layers here
• Layer ComboBoxes - have these searchable
  • Why do I have to scroll to find a specific layer, this can be painful
• Standardize Layer - Filter
• Surface Flags - Filter
  • The ability to filter flags by a certain surface

Turning off flags in the surface properties should also hide them in the flag pane. IMO of course.

The Layer Manager needs a complete overhaul. It should be written from scratch in low-level code instead of crafted through the macro language functionality. As it stands, it is sluggish and clunky as a result of the inefficiencies inherent with the way it is programmed.

Filtering/search ability should be standard. The highlighting color shouldn't match the text selection color; it always requires extra care when editing a layer name because it isn't possible to easily see if any or all of the current name is selected - combined with the non-standard control key-map behaviors, editing layer names becomes a headache unnecessarily.

One thing that could really improve performance and user experience is if instead of all properties for all layers being exposed in edit mode (i.e. combo boxes and text edit controls) right off the bat, have the primary mode be to just list/display everything (toggles for visibility/printing are fine) - it would run more smoothly this way. Then there should be a set of buttons to execute editing functionality on specific selected layers. Also I would love for layer grouping could include surfaces and geo-referenced images so I could organize those the same way layers can be organized. The Layer Group Manager needs fixed too - "Create New Layer Group" from inside a drop-down in the Layer Manager takes you to the Group Manager, initially in edit mode for the new group but immediately exiting the edit mode forcing you to select it again just to initially name it. Then hitting "Enter" should finish edit mode but not create an additional new group.

These layer management bugs have been around for nearly a couple years now and I think they should have been higher on the list of things to fix. TBC is already such an excellent piece of software, it seems a shame that rough edges like this are allowed to survive release after release.

I agree.

I 100% agree @Marshall Cant. Big fan of TBC myself and usually in TBC all day as well. But, as you basically stated, the "quality of life" quarks should be cleaned up before trying to create the next big thing. For example, Vertical Design is a great feature with enormous potential (still too many quarks to use productively however), yet I have to uncheck 96 designs to publish just 1 to the project library. Doesn't make sense. And why can't we get simple directional glyphs on a line (similar to SCS900 does) when the line is selected and not have to run a third party macro or edit command? Not to mention turning on a layer with the yellow dot, non-overlapping overlapping line message, consistent right click controls (try to get out of the offset command quickly with esc or right click), copy/paste simple cad elements from the clipboard, smart text library, etc, etc, etc. Quality of life consistency of the software goes a long way for production. Little things are inconsequential for one offs and development/testing environment; but do it all day, everyday, in a production environment and get back to me.  Considering the price paid and paying, concerns and allowances for system quarks should not be of concern for the user. 

As a user of TBC for 8 years I would also very much agree with everything Marshall has said.  I absolutely fear updating TBC as something that previously worked is almost certainly broken.  My current fun broken thing is when adding VPIs at "crossing line" instead of jumping down to the elevation prompt the focus jumps all the way back to the top of the edit linestring command.  Super frustrating given the thousands of dollars spent.  As a company we have 8 licenses and 5 power users.

agree with what was posted above, also we should not have to wait 6 months for major bug fixes. 

Hopefully they fixed the clip command 

How many Developers are there actually? Because looking at how long it takes that bugs are being addressed and fixed or improvement requests actually making it to their todo list indicates to me that there aren't enough.

I'm waiting since late 2016 for the ability to rotate the plan view. Back then I was working for SITECH and I was told it's being forwarded to the product manager. Now we have 2020 and we still haven't got it.

I haven't even installed the new version yet, there is just not that much in the release notes that actually suggests it would be worthwhile for me. A lot of focus into scanning and mobile mapping again, but not many improvements in the CAD/Surface/Corridor/UI section. The bug-fix for the propeller photo import, I'm waiting for since 2 month and was told will be in the next release, didn't make it into the release notes.

In order to run the ANZToolbox I had to upgrade now to 5.31 anyway and have to admit that they actually fixed the error with the Propeller photos, although not mentioned in the release notes. They have changed it completely. Before it created lots of sub-folders with lots of small tiles, now it creates one big .OVR file which according to Google is an ArcGIS pyramid file format.

I will add my bit to the OVR file too. It is very painfull when 1 big file is created and when work is done of the cloud. Especially when you are in remote location and with very slow internet. 1 OVR  file makes the work impossible as it requires to be loaded to the project before it starts up.. any work around with this one?

1) No other software I know of resets all customizations EVERY time there is even a minor update. Make the customizations "Sticky". All other software does it.

I've heard this frustration a lot over the last two years.

Would you like TBC to offer to import your previous ribbon as is?

Do you also need to know what commands are new? And where they are in the new default ribbon?

From this other recent forum post Customize The Ribbon, I understand that importing the previous TBC ribbon is broken - the new commands appear in the Customize Ribbon dialog, but they have no icons.

If this was not broken, would being able to import your old ribbon be enough to take most of the edge off this issue?

Note: From that other post, both Rockpile and Revenant are looking to help in this area.

Quan

(edit: quote formatting)

Quan: I appreciate you jumping in to participate in this discussion.

However, I do not believe that these complaints should be addressed by a third party vendor using TML's.

TBC's many useability/interface issues and bugs need to be addressed natively by the TBC core developers like any other high end software in the world.

I would think that as part of the tens of thousands we spend to have decently functional software that basic UI and bugs could be addressed.

Example: While I REALLY do appreciate Alan Sharp and Rockpile's re-introduction of the Dark theme as a TML, this should have been done natively and not passed to a third party vendor because TBC's development team can't get it together to do basic UI work.

In the parallel software universe of high end digital imaging (in which I am also a power user) what TBC calls TML's are essentially known as Plug-ins. Plug-ins EXTEND the functionality of the main software core as they are intended to do in TBC.

Plug-ins are NEVER used to FIX basic problems with the core software.

So, once again, while I appreciate you jumping in to move the issue forward. I believe that Trimble's TBC developers need to address these issues in the core product.

Very best regards,

Marshall

I agree Marshall, I think it is fantastic that they added the TML functionality for 3rd party development, and I think Alan and Peter are some of the sharpest people in the game and I can't wait to see what they come up with next, but I also feel like some of the very basic things they are making TMLs for shouldn't have to be up to them but should be part of the software.  I hear what Sanjeev is saying and completely understand that all this is just a function of man-hours required.  From my completely-ignorant-outside-looking-in point of view it seems like Trimble should be able to add at least a few additional developers with little to no increase in product price...especially with Alan off the payroll

Wayne:  I 100% agree about Alan and Peter. In fact, I would go as far as to say that without Alan's personal input and daily dedication that I may have said, "to hell with it" and gone to Civil 3D.

I also agree that basic functionality is being passed to 3rd party developers like Rockpile. I love what these folks do but, as an example, the user interface dark option as a third party "add-on"? Come on.

Show me one other high end software that you know of that has these issues year after year? With version 5 the "joining" of the construction side with the geospatial side (don't get me started..) should have resulted in a streamlined development path that saw all these issues addressed. Instead we now have what I pointed out in my original rant (and a lot more).

As far as change? I'll believe it when I see it. I was a Brand Manager for 20 years and these types of issues are incredibly hard to root out once embedded in the culture. From my view it seems that TBC has lost its focus. I hope they get it back before I retire .

In the meantime we carry on....

Marshall

I have been using BC fully for the past 5 years and before that went back and forth between BC and Terramodel for about 6 years. I still find myself going to Terramodel for small things that I know are easier (at least to me), to get done. One thing I wish they would do in BC that was in Terramodel, is allow the view the rotate with changing the coordinates. In Terramodel you are able to rotate the view without disturbing the location and translation of the project.

I miss Terramodel…. throwing it out there.

3d, functional, powerful, light, with heavy calculating power.

Use to model sea caves from floor, to ceiling, to above ground, with slices of the topography as an option for sheet sets; back in the late 90's.

Just saying.

I agree with Marshall's sentiment, though I don't use the construction part of TBC.  It would be nice if the TBC team could almost take a pause of their efforts to add big new features to address the quirks that seem to be persistent in the software. Often I new release I read of users experiencing slow performance, long time functions that suddenly have a problem, etc.

It's funny, I tried the Dark theme for the first time since a little bit of HCE when I first started on TBC (a year and a half ago). I only tried it due to all of the complaints of Trimble removing it. So, I switched for about 30 seconds, I hated the dark theme haha. Seems I'm alone. I use TBC for hours per day but I always have dimmed background images behind my work. Those dimmed background images are a very similar shade of grey compared to the light colored theme. My eyes must just be used to it!

I 100% agree with You @Marshall Cant.
Clean up the mass Trimble!@Marshall Cant

What we spend yearly for support is where these issues should be fixed in the program not having to pay more money to have a tml created to fix these problems, If that is where Trimble wants to take this then everyone should stop supporting BC and just spend that money on TMLs.

Trimble will get their money regardless. I assure you, the business model will change if what your suggesting occurs. Right down to requiring an up to date TBC license/maintenance to run third party TMLs.  While I fully support RPS and their efforts, I agree, we shouldn't need to relay on third party vendors for basic innovations, fixes, and implementation of things that one would otherwise expect in the core product; in a reasonable amount of time as well.   

Before you know it, TML yearly licensing will equal TBC yearly licensing as it's not far off now. While I don't begrudge TML developers their due, as their not doing it for practice and what they are providing is indispensable from a production standpoint, Trimble needs to understand that should they become too reliant on TML developers for basic innovation, problem fixes, and customers wants, companies will start looking elsewhere for their solutions. 

Marshall et al. — I am the current Product Owner of TBC, and I wanted to share my thoughts on your submission and comments from others who have taken the time to post here.

First of all, thank you!

All of you clearly care enough about the product, it’s features, and it’s shortcomings to take time out of your busy day to voice their opinions and frustrations. While at first glance, this thread may feel intimidating and disheartening; to me, it is the complete opposite. Your comments about features and issues based on your usage and experience are worth consideration, and I wanted to share what I and the rest of the TBC are going to do about it.

Please note that while I cannot discuss specific timelines due to established Trimble policy, my goal here is to share my thought process and what I will do about the discussion points mentioned in Marshall Cant’s original post.

1) Retaining customizations — this has been on the team’s list for a while, and there is ongoing effort to finalize the infrastructure and changes needed in TBC to support it.
Action — actively working on this, will be provided in a future release.

2) Cleanup utility — this is not needed for all installations, and it is recommended to make sure that no other program or unintended actions taken by the user on their machine would interfere with the product. If you find yourself having to run the utility for every install, this might be related to what’s on your computer, and cleanup would be necessary in such cases.
Action — no change needed, I welcome suggestions if you believe otherwise.

3) Dark theme — the decision to remove the dark theme was a practical one due to the effort it demanded from the team. It was a trade-off — either spend time maintaining a theme, or spend time providing functionality. While this may not be the most persuasive reasoning for taking it away, it is the real reason. Instead of delivering a half-baked solution, the decision was made to take it away. I now believe this to have been an error and needs to be rectified.
Action — needs to be addressed.

4) Light interface — this was a result of the Trimble branding initiative across multiple products. I am sure we can agree that no theme will be perfect for everyone and some will like it more than others. However, I don’t want to brush this off merely as a disagreement, and I will reach out to our design team with your feedback.
Action — comments to be shared with the Trimble design team.

5) Layer Manager — no arguments here, these are all valid asks, and while I cannot speak to what happened two years ago when you asked for it, I will work with the team and put this in our backlog, so we don’t lose sight of it. Again, I cannot share timelines, as I mentioned above.
Action — candidate for backlog item for future consideration.

6) Interface inconsistency — this one is interesting, and I would like to explore this further with you. My email address is below, and I would appreciate it if you could drop me a line so we can continue this conversation further.
Action — follow-up needed, potential for future consideration.

7) 4K monitor support — the team looked into this before, and there was not much adoption of 4K monitors to justify the effort given that this is a significant undertaking. Since then, the adoption of 4K monitors seems to be gone up, and I believe we are at a point when this will need to be looked into.
Action — needs to be addressed.

I would also like to add that while the community is fundamentally a tool for asking questions and getting answers from other users, noting features and defects here is not the best way to get such items into the backlog. I realize that there is no good way at the moment to be sure that these items get into the backlog.

I am going to change that and provide a way for you and other users to add items on the list for consideration, and that isn’t just content floating around in an endless thread of emails.

Here’s what I am doing — I am working with the team that administers this community to provide a way for capturing ideas and defects and allow for a way to vote on such items so that I can prioritize and provide feedback on such asks. This setup will take some time, so I ask for your understanding as I look into all the moving pieces to make this happen.

And finally - Sanjeev_Saha@trimble.com - I am leaving my email address here so you and others can contact me directly to follow-up on this and any other thoughts you might have. I realize I am opening myself to a world of overflowing inbox, and I believe this is necessary until I can get the setup to track requests from the community that will work for the long term.

I hope this gives you and everyone else a sense of my thought process.

Again, I want to thank you and everyone who has taken the time to share thoughts, opinions, frustrations, and candid feedback. This community wouldn’t be of much help without your active engagement.

Sanjeev

Personally, I'd be exceedingly happy if the next couple of versions focused solely on UI/UX and performance improvements.

I agree 100% on most items and also dread new updates but taking away the dark format Is my #1 complaint 

I Hate the light layout to the point I almost didn't renew my warranty. And went back to using. v4.51, it is like learning TBC all over again