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For a road that has varying slopes for EP, ES and say a  Shoulder LT and RT, you end up running through the cross sections  twice each shape LT and RT (6 times for a two lane road). I am aware of the import tables from excel but that also requires time to create all those tables. Just wondering if there is a faster way to enter slopes from cross sections tp the template shapes?

Maybe a toggle to say a template shape is LT and/or RT with options for the tie node and offset/slope for each side? Then the table would be Station/LT Slope/RT Slope...... and the same for Station/LT Offset/RT Offset......

At least for the travel portion maybe there could be a table in the superelevation tab of the alignment that is simply station/ slope LT & RT. Many times there are slope variations left and right that are not a mathematical super or in other situations such as match existing, slope variations through an intersection or into/out of a bridge that carries a constant slope where a table is the only solution. Yes this can be done with a slope table for each shape but looking for a faster entry method where LT and RT can be entered simultaneously. 

Not sure I really understand your point here Glenn - we would need to discuss one on one here I think

Alan

Yes, it is a little difficult to explain but easy to understand if you see it. I didn't get a chance to show you the two projects that we recently did that were 5 and 15 miles long with many variations from typical slope to match existing to "smooth" the slope transition. Nice specs right!! We do some odd things here in Indiana! We will see more of these projects in the future.....

I have to get down to some other stuff over the next few days - I will try and get back on this before I head out on PTO  but cannot promise

Alan

Sent from my iPhone

No rush on that!! I appreciate your time!! Let me pull a sample of the larger project and put together a little narrative along with some screen snaps to send your way at a later date. Enjoy your PTO!! Thanks!!

I have a similar issue. When I provide side slopes in two consecutive templates the side slopes vary continuously from the previous to the later. I want an abrupt change. How do I ensure this.

When I build Templates I try to build my Roads with one Template and I use Tables extensively to enter Offsets, Slopes and Elevations as they all change by Station. When using Tables if you enter for example

Station   Slope

0    3:1

100   3:1

200   2:1

200   2:1

Then you will get a Slope Transition between 100 and 200

If you enter

0   3:1

100   3:1

100.01   2:1

200   2:!

Then you will get a Hard transition between 100 and 100.01 in the slope

If you enter

0   3:1

100   ?

200   2:1

Then you will get a gap between 100 and 200

If you want a hard stop and start using Templates you have to have a Template placed at 0 with a 3:1 slope, then a Template at 100 as a Null Template (Nothing in it - which causes a hard stop of all elements) and then a new template at 100.01 with your new slope in it of 2:1 (if working in meters use 100.001 etc.)

This should give you what you want but using Tables in one Template is far easier in my view than using multiple Templates.

Thanks a lot

On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 6:51 PM, alan_sharp@trimble.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

I have further issues.

 Attached files may help in understanding.

I was looking at the conditional instruction for template."if ...dist...between nodes" etc. Was wondering if there is a trick by which I can apply one of these for my template.

Case 1. Daylight line for Cut / Fill is within the ROW.  No problem here.

Case 2. Is a "Fill" situation. Daylight line formed by the Fill slope of 1:6 is beyond the corridor. In such a case the fill slope (From node 9 to Node 11 and 12) is varied to keep the Daylight line along the ROW

Case 3. Is a "Cut" situation and the Daylight line is beyond ROW. (Ch 0+322.42). In this case the Daylight line (node 12) must be coincident with node 10, the cut back slope of 1:3 must be respected, the ditch width can be varied upto Zero, and the segment Node 9 to Node 11 slope set to "varies".

Is there a possibility of having an appropriate single or several templates?

Please help.

Thanks.

I will take a look at your file this week - I use Conditions for this type of thing regularly. The key is to create the Condition using a "Test Shot" for example

If you have a design Cut Slope that is at 3:1 but it has to land inside the ROW line and if it doesnt then you have to use a 2.5:1 or steeper slope - this is a perfect scenario to use the Conditional instruction. Before putting in the Condition create an instruction that is not assigned to any material layer that has a slope of 3:1 Cut tying to OG.

Now you have the Test Shot, you can test to see if it is inside the ROW line or not (or inside the max offset for the ROW line using an If Condition.

If the Condition passes then you tell it to create a Connection between the Toe of the cut slope and the Test point 

If the Condition fails you tell it to tie at 2.5:1 or whatever your steeper slope should be - or just tie from the toe of slope to the ROW line if that is what you want to happen.

This will require that your ROW line is available as a Node in the template - if you have a 2D Line for that you can Change its Elevation to match OG Elevation using the Cange Elevation command. Then once you have a 3D line you can add it as a reference line in the Corridor Model itself (Not the Template - the model in the project Explorer.

Now that you have the Test Shot and the ROW line in the Template  you can test the Horizontal Distance between nodes - use Test Shot - ROW and if that distance is >0 and <1000 ten it Fails (Test Shot is outside the ROW) and if it is <0 and >-1000 then it passes (Test Shot is inside ROW) (on the Right Side) (Note that the signs reverse on the left side for the same test.

Hope that this may get you going before mid week this week

Alan

In your Cut section what is the order of variation to the standard ie

The Standard Design shows that in cut you should use the three elements

1) 8.4m (1.4m Vertical Drop) at -1:6

2) 2m Flat Bottom Ditch

3) 1:3 Slope to Daylight

If Node 3 above is inside ROW then all above is good

If Node 3 is outside ROW then you need to vary one of the following

1) The DItch can go from 2m to 0m

2) The 1:6 slope can steepen to 1:3 max (shortens the offset to 3.2m from 8.4m)

Which do you do first and which do you do second (The ditch to 0 or the slope to 1.3) this will dictate how to set this up

Let me know

Alan

Thank you very much. It has been a really quick response.

I have stated the requirements in RED color.

Hope this explains.

Will wait for your response.

Regards.

On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 5:38 PM, alan_sharp@trimble.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

If we assume that the following is what you need to do

Lets say we try to keep the 2m ditch and we will vary the inner slope from 1:6 to 1:3 first and only when we are at 1:3 do we vary the width of the ditch from 2 to 0 and after the inner slope is at 1:3 and the Ditch is at 0 (you dont define what happens then - but let's assume for now that that scenario never occurs)

First step for me would be to create a set of instructions that compute back from the ROW line to the inside of DItch

From the Edge (by Barrier), create an instruction that is a 1.4m Vertical Drop (the drop of the inner slope). Call this point Edge Base and dont assign it to a material layer)

From the ROW create an instruction that comes towards the CL by 0.,001 and VD of 0 (to set a direction for next shape). Call this DIR PT (Again do not assign to a material layer)

From DIR PT create a Slope Slope intercept using the ROW and a slope of -1:3 and the Edge Base and a slope of 0 (this creates a point called TOE) (Again do not assign to a Material Layer)

From the TOE create an instruction that is towards the CL by 2m and VD of 0 call this DB (Ditch Bottom) (again do not assign to a material Layer)

The distance between TOE and Edge Base is your test condition and the following will apply (if we use the asumptions from above)

If the Distance from TOE to Edge Base >10.4m then you have room for the 1:6 slope for 8.4m, the 2m ditch and the tie slope will end up inside the ROW.

Else If the DIstance from TOE to Edge Base is > 5.2m then your inner slope will vary so create a Connect from Edge to DB (this creates an element with varying slope from 1:3 to 1:6 depending on the offset). Create a Connect from DB to TOE and then a side slope from Toe to Daylight at 1:3

Else if the Distance from TOE to Edge Base is >3.2m then your inner slope is locked at 1:3 and your ditch width varies from 0 to 2m and then you have your side slope of 1:3 so Create a Offset Slope of 1:3 for 3.2m, then create a connect to TOE (the varying width ditch) and then your Side SLope of 1:3 to Daylight

Last you have to decide on what happens if the Distance is <3.2m because now you do not have room for the Inner Slope at 1:3 for the drop of 1.4m nor the DItch element for 2m so you have choices

1) End If - dont do anything - that leaves those sections of the road Empty and ask the Engineer what they want you to do

2) The above assumption is wrong and lets say that the Slope goes from 1:6 to 1:3 first, then the ditch goes from 2m wide to 0, and then I guess you could say that the inner slope shortens or the outer Tie slope Steepens creating more conditions.

Note that often in the plans the Engineer will provide a set of plans that show where the Tie slope daylights - I will often digitize that line off the PDF file and use that to determine what to do in the last scenario - or you can look at Cross Sections if provided in the areas that this could be a problem and determine what to do.

I will endeavor to find time tomorrow to build this example for you to look at  but I hope that this helps to define how to achieve a solution in these scenarios

Alan

I uploaded an example file that I think shows you how to do what you are trying to do

Click Here to download

Alan

That was really fast. Thanks a lot.

This issue was begging for an answer for quite a while. This conversation has taught me more than I guessed would.

Regards.

Glad to hear I could help

Alan

Sent from my iPhone

I need to trouble you again.

I have done the "Cut" situation for my project with some changes. I think I

am right.

I tried adding a "Fill" situation as another condition. I failed. Could you

help me out again.

I did not find the "end if" condition (Which you have used as the last line

of instructions in your file) in the list of conditions.

I attach file carrying my efforts.

Also, a few words on mirroring a complicated set of instructions as this

would help.

Thanks and Regards.

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 6:01 PM, alan_sharp@trimble.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

The End statement is in the Conditional Instruction type - it shows as End not End If. Every If statement should have an End statement paired with it. If you ever Nest If statements then you will need an End for each If statement.

If you dont have End statements to an If conditional, then all instructions after the IF are considered a part of the IF which maybe why your Fill condition isnt working

SO 

I added two End statements to your If and Nested If for Cut scenarios

I changed your Fill If / Else If to If / Else if you only have a Either Or condition (ie two choices like you have in the Fill - which is either to do the Fill slope as per the design if the Test Point is inside the ROW and the alternative if the point is outside the ROW to connect the Edge point to the ROW point (ROW = Fence RHS in your example), then you only need to use the sequence

If Test point is inside ROW then

   Do this

Else

   Do the alternative

End

The time to use Else Ifs is like in the Cut situation you have multiple test cases to work through, then you use

If Test Point Meets Condition 1

   Do This but if it fails

Else If (It Fails test Case 1)

   Do This but if it fails again

Else If (If it fails Test Case 2)

   Do This but if it fails again

Else If

and you keep using Else Ifs for each alternative you want to test. If the last alternative is reached then it can be an Else statement (the catch all - if all previous test cases have failed then do this) - it can be an Else If or an Else either works in that situation but if your last case really is an If all else fails do this then you should use an Else statement which will always be executed and it is not a test just a Do It command.

I your Fill test case you picked the ROW second and the Test Point first and then tested a >0 <300 value which was wrong - the Test is always First Point - Second Point and if it is a Positive or Negative value - so I changed Point 1 to be the ROW line and Point 2 to be the Test Point and then if ROW - Test Point is a positive number (>0 <300) then it passes and executes and if it fails (i.e. a negative number (>-300 <0) then it would do the Else statement.

I will upload the Project with these changes and I think you have what you wanted on the Right side.

Mirroring Instructions - When any instruction incorporates a connection to a referenced line, you will be stopped from Mirroring an instruction set. You need to build out the Right Side as far as possible without using any Ref Lines and then Mirror prior to building out the instructions that use Ref lines. Apologies for that - on the upside because all of the strings on Right and Left side have different names etc, and because Conditions on the Left Side have reverse signs to those on the Right Side (See Below) it is often easier to build the Left Side manually and not mirror - especially where there are conditions involved.

If you take the ROW and Test Point Scenario and if you take the Right SIde first

Where the Test Point is inside the ROW, if you Take ROW - Test Point as the Test Distance it will be +ve if the Test point is inside the ROW and -ve if the Test Point is outside the ROW line for example 

Inside - Test Point has an offset of 20m and ROW has an offset of 30m then 30-20 = 10 (+ve)

Outside - Test Point is 40m offset and ROW is 30m Offset then 30-40 = -10 (-ve)

However on the Left side of the alignment do the same calcs

Inside - Test Point has an offset of -20, ROW has an offset of -30 then -30 - -20 = -10 (-ve)

Outside - Test Point has an offset of -40, ROW has an offset of -30 then -30 - -40 = +10 (+ve)

Remember this when creating Conditions using HD between nodes as the test when switching sides and make sure you remain consistent with your order of point selection in the test

Hope that this helps

Here is the link to the updated Project

Click Here To Download

Alan

Thanks for a comprehensive set of instructions to build a good template.

Also, it has been very prompt.

I had been struggling with these for months now. I used Terramodel  / Civil

3D to some how manage work on site. Now this is going to make my life so

much easier.

I can't really thank you enough.

The Download link is not working. Getting the message as below:Oops, the

page can't be found

Sorry, the page you requested can't be found. You can go back and try

again, or start again at home <https://community.trimble.com/>.

I suppose the file has not yet been uploaded. Will wait.

Regards.

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 3:45 AM, alan_sharp@trimble.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

I am still unable to access the file. Strange !!!

Thanks.

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 3:45 AM, alan_sharp@trimble.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

One other point that I forgot to mention a while back when you asked about how to make things transition sharply and not gradually when using multi templates.

One trick that is very often missed is that if you put an instruction in a Table the Table overrides all transitions and fully controls the instruction and stops it from transitioning between templates. So when you want to stop Template Transitions affecting something, put that element instruction into an Offset or Slope or Elevation Table even if it only has one line of data e.g. Station 0 Slope 3:1 and that will stop it from transitioning.

Saif - send me your email address to alan_sharp@trimble.com and give me your company details so that I can add you to my Technical Mailing List / Power User Group community - it is good to have overseas members to give us the International and Metric perspectives and to get ideas and input from you.

Thanks

Alan

Thanks again. It is weekend today for us. I will be able to access the file

tomorrow.

Regards.

On Thu, 6 Sep 2018, 18:14 alan_sharp@trimble.com, <trimble@jiveon.com>

Try the download again now - I just refreshed the link - I believe it is all OK now

Alan

When I click the link it just starts to download [ apologies I am not sure what else I can do here

Try This Link

Now it is OK.

Thanks a lot.

On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 8:41 AM, alan_sharp@trimble.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

I need your help for the next stage.

I need to create another surface following the Finished Surface.

I have sent a separate mail with attachments. Hope you will find some time to spare for this.

Unfortunately I could not find any detailed Video or Tutorials anywhere to help me with this.

Thanks.

Saif

I have recorded a video to show you how to build out Corridor Subgrades as you have requested. 

A couple of notes here

1) I typically get My Finish Grade correct first

2) Once I get my Finish correct then I start to look at creating my Main Subgrade Areas (under the Road Bed Next - I dont typically try to step the edges of the subgrade unless I really have to - I typically build those to a straight slope from the EOP to the Formation. I used a 1:1 slope in this example.

3) For the Base of Formation I typically create a Point vertically below one of my EOPs at the Subgrade Depth and leave it unattached to any Material Layer, and then I create the Formation below the Pavement using a Slope Slope Instruction, following the Pavement Cross Slope (so it picks up the Super elevations and also the Subgrade Edge Slope (1:1 in this example). When I create surface elements for the Formation I tag them with the Formation layer. When I create the Subgrade Edge Slopes I add those to the Subgrade Slope Surface. When you define these surface elements - it asks you for the material above the surface element - so above Formation I use Subgrade or Subgrade 1 (this would typically be Sub Base Course, Base Course, Filter Course, Wearing Course etc.) (or the specific materials like Concrete, Crushed Stone, Hot Mix Asphalt etc.)

Note there is a trick to Slope Slope Instructions to get the slopes going in the right direction and at the right slope 0 see how I created them (there are several on Left or Right Side and you will see what I did).

4) Once I have the "Box Outs for Subgrade done, I will then complete the Layers that I need to create - Many people do not create all of the Layers unless they are quantifying all the materials - many Machine Control Users just create Finished Grade and Formation and then use Offsets in the Machine to come up from Formation or Down from Finished grade to build the layers. 

5) Once I have built My Layers and they are all working I will work on my Topsoil Respreads (in your case you need those before you can build your final parts of the Formation surface because that ties to your Topsoil Respreads. Note your diagram shows that Topsoil is spread at a thickness Perpendicular to the slope - currently we put that in as a Vertical Number - If you have to do Perpendicular then we would have to do that using SIte Improvements vs the Corridor Model as the Corridor doesnt support Perpendicular Respreads. The error is quite small in terms of volumes, and the surfaces we would do using Layered Lifts in the Machine to get the Perpendicular offset to Finished grade.

6) Now that I have the Topsolis, I would tie out my Formation to the base of Topsoil as shown in my model.

I wasn't clear about how your Side Slopes were defined and it was getting late for me and I wanted to get this to you for start of Day in Dubai / UAE - so the Formation in places is not tying as it should to the side slope - if you are using shareable slope tables or slope tables to do that, then in place of a Node to Node in the Slope Slope instruction you can switch that out to the Shareabe SLope Table or a copy of the slope tables used for the sideslopes etc. then it will match out ok. With a little more time I could have fixed that - maybe I can get to that tomorrow if you need me to do that for you (if you cannot get it to work yourself).

All the time when you are adding surface layer instructions you need to check that the Template colors in correctly based on the assigned materials, that the section areas look correct and that everything ties out as you expect. You should browse through all of the sections to make sure that all scenarios are covered. You will likely have some "corner cases" where e.g. the Cut slope was not completed because the Ditch bottom broke the OG so the tie slope was not completed etc. you need to decide what you want to do in those scenarios where you find them.

Hope that helps and that at least this get's you moving forwards again - apologies that it has taken me a couple of weeks to get to this as I have been on vacation (yes I do take breaks sometimes!) and my colleagues did not see this request so this is on me (hence the late night tonight!).

Let me know if you have any questions - I enclose a file and the video that I hope assists in understanding (there is a lot to cover in here for sure.

Alan

Saif

A quick last comment

Because your Side slopes were all computed using multiple conditions you have at lest 3 different nodes for cut and 3 different nodes for fill - this means when you are trying to create Slope Slope instructions you will need to create multiples because of the multiple pairs of nodes that you will have to pick to get the Formation Ties to the Sideslope or the soil respreads to sideslope working. In these scenarios - If I am good with my Finish Grade - I would tighten up the interval of computation for Finished Grade and then explode the Corridor Surface Model (after rebuilding it at the tight interval (see video) to create the "Strings" and then I would try to create two strings that follow the Top and Toe of slope on Left and Right side and use those as ref Lines in the Corridor as I start to build my Subgrade Model - it is faster to do it this way as I only have two strings on Left and two strings on Right to control where my Topsoil strip goes and also where my formation Tie on left and right goes

You have to be sure that your Finished Grade model is good however before you do that - as you cannot iterate back and forth doing it this way.

Hope this helps

Alan

There was no video. The link only took me to an image.

Could you please resend the video.

Thanks.

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 10:16 AM alan_sharp@trimble.com <trimble@jiveon.com>

The video is there for me - I am not sure why you cannot see it - I will make another post today with the Video