Trimble Business Center

Hello

I have a question regarding the Transform Survey Feature in TBC.

When out in the field i set up the TS on E:1000.000 N:5000.000 H:100.000, i continue to do they survey. Once finished i shoot in the 2 control stations with the GPS as observed control points, 3 times each and average to get the coords, once back in the office when i transform the survey points to the GPS coordinates i get a vertical residual error every time, is this something i am doing wrong in the field or something i am doing wrong in TBC?

Any help on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Stevie

Hello

I have a question regarding the Transform Survey Feature in TBC.

When out in the field i set up the TS on E:1000.000 N:5000.000 H:100.000, i continue to do they survey. Once finished i shoot in the 2 control stations with the GPS as observed control points, 3 times each and average to get the coords, once back in the office when i transform the survey points to the GPS coordinates i get a vertical residual error every time, is this something i am doing wrong in the field or something i am doing wrong in TBC?

Any help on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Stevie

Your post sound familiar, maybe you had a duplicate post. A transformation requires 3 points to create a vertical plane, which may be why yours fails when you only locate 2 with GNSS.  You are best off starting your field observations with 2 GNSS points instead of having to mess with moving data after all observations are finished.

Hello

I have a question regarding the Transform Survey Feature in TBC.

When out in the field i set up the TS on E:1000.000 N:5000.000 H:100.000, i continue to do they survey. Once finished i shoot in the 2 control stations with the GPS as observed control points, 3 times each and average to get the coords, once back in the office when i transform the survey points to the GPS coordinates i get a vertical residual error every time, is this something i am doing wrong in the field or something i am doing wrong in TBC?

Any help on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Stevie

Hi Robert

Thanks for the input and advice. No other post from me I'm afraid. I'm new to the forum community and this was my first post. Not quite keen on how the forum works either if I'm honest...did a search for transforming and found the OP but when clicked on it didn't show any of the thread or replies. I've since done another search, changed the sort to by date and hey presto found the rest of the conversation and thus useful info to move forward.

I had observed all 3 of my ground control points with my GNSS receiver but had errors with 1 of them. I understand the workflow is best taken by GNSS observations, then traverse based off those, then detail capture. And this is my normal go to routine. However in this instance the client was tight on funds so I explained I can reduce time on site, and therefore costs (some money in is better than none according to my seniors ) by changing our methods slightly (GNSS capture on unoccupied stations, while detail being collected from the others, then rotating around) but I informed them I could not guarantee the accuracy of the output as we're not following standard practice. For what they needed the data for, this was an acceptable way of working. However it's now stumped me in TBC because I've not had to work this way in there before. Everything I've done in TBC so far has been by the book so to speak.

Your post sound familiar, maybe you had a duplicate post. A transformation requires 3 points to create a vertical plane, which may be why yours fails when you only locate 2 with GNSS.  You are best off starting your field observations with 2 GNSS points instead of having to mess with moving data after all observations are finished.

Hello

I have a question regarding the Transform Survey Feature in TBC.

When out in the field i set up the TS on E:1000.000 N:5000.000 H:100.000, i continue to do they survey. Once finished i shoot in the 2 control stations with the GPS as observed control points, 3 times each and average to get the coords, once back in the office when i transform the survey points to the GPS coordinates i get a vertical residual error every time, is this something i am doing wrong in the field or something i am doing wrong in TBC?

Any help on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Stevie

we used to work this way all the time. so i know how to do it, but it has been a while now and there have been many versions of tbc since, still i don't think anything has changed. 

there are maybe other ways to do it, but this was our approach. 

there are two scenarios. if you have rtk ties to the two first total station points(occupy and backsight) then it is easier. first change the point number for the total station points to the same as the rtk points and when prompted to, merge the two points together. then delete the 'coordinates' from all the total station points, or even the whole project. before doing this you might want to create an office entered point for your rtk base station and make it control quality. you can also do it after the coordinate delete. if you use advance select, select all points, then in advanced select change to coordinates, apply then navigate in the project explorer into the drop down for one of the .job files right click and delete the highlighted 'coordinates'. now the starting point local coordinates for the total station should be deleted and because the point is merged to the rtk the observation data from the rtk shot should be applied and used for the total station setup. one more important thing, in project explorer or advanced select you are going to want to locate the 'azimuth record', this is the azimuth on the first total station setup. this will not shift so it needs to be deleted or disabled. after all this you should be able to compute the project and it should shift. at this point i would also do a network adjustment, and if it has not shifted yet, then you might need to do the network adjustment. 

the second scenario is when you have rtk on two points of the total station travers that are NOT the starting two points. this is a bit harder in that tbc needs starting points, even something rough(approximate), near where the total station two points begin. in the past i have just picked points in the general area and assigned them as office entered points with unknown quality to those two starting total station points. then do the above steps. you get flags saying those rough points are out, but since they are unknown quality they should not be applied, i forget exactly the next steps. you likely need to give control quality to the rtk shots and run network adjust, then reassign the office entered coordinates to the first total station setup to the adjusted ones. rerun the network adjust and hopefully the flags go away. 

if you still have vertical problems then there are many areas of error that can happen for those and it is a bit hard to trouble shoot without more info. but hopefully these steps get you started.

Hi Robert

Thanks for the input and advice. No other post from me I'm afraid. I'm new to the forum community and this was my first post. Not quite keen on how the forum works either if I'm honest...did a search for transforming and found the OP but when clicked on it didn't show any of the thread or replies. I've since done another search, changed the sort to by date and hey presto found the rest of the conversation and thus useful info to move forward.

I had observed all 3 of my ground control points with my GNSS receiver but had errors with 1 of them. I understand the workflow is best taken by GNSS observations, then traverse based off those, then detail capture. And this is my normal go to routine. However in this instance the client was tight on funds so I explained I can reduce time on site, and therefore costs (some money in is better than none according to my seniors ) by changing our methods slightly (GNSS capture on unoccupied stations, while detail being collected from the others, then rotating around) but I informed them I could not guarantee the accuracy of the output as we're not following standard practice. For what they needed the data for, this was an acceptable way of working. However it's now stumped me in TBC because I've not had to work this way in there before. Everything I've done in TBC so far has been by the book so to speak.

Your post sound familiar, maybe you had a duplicate post. A transformation requires 3 points to create a vertical plane, which may be why yours fails when you only locate 2 with GNSS.  You are best off starting your field observations with 2 GNSS points instead of having to mess with moving data after all observations are finished.

Hello

I have a question regarding the Transform Survey Feature in TBC.

When out in the field i set up the TS on E:1000.000 N:5000.000 H:100.000, i continue to do they survey. Once finished i shoot in the 2 control stations with the GPS as observed control points, 3 times each and average to get the coords, once back in the office when i transform the survey points to the GPS coordinates i get a vertical residual error every time, is this something i am doing wrong in the field or something i am doing wrong in TBC?

Any help on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Stevie

Hi Ian

Thanks for your input, very much appreciated. As it turns out, I'd worked it out as you have described through trial and error. Steps as follows:

• Create GNSS points named the same as local grid GCP's, set them to control quality.
• Import local grid survey data and merge points named the same
• Delete local co-ords from GCPs and azimuth, recompute the project.
• Create and adjust traverse to suit site workflow
• Adjust network
• Process feature codes

And hey presto, we're where we should be with good precision reports on the traverse and network adjustment.

Next thing I need to work out is why my point symbols appear as random text characters when exporting to CAD. I can't export points as block as I get an error for some reason. Also a bit miffed about how the orientation of labels work. 1 step below seem to be not in relation to string direction but to rotation of the display. Seems a daft way to do things and this may have been corrected in later releases that I don't have and won't get. Unless you can help with those too, I guess I'll have to create another thread.

Cheers again for your help 

we used to work this way all the time. so i know how to do it, but it has been a while now and there have been many versions of tbc since, still i don't think anything has changed. 

there are maybe other ways to do it, but this was our approach. 

there are two scenarios. if you have rtk ties to the two first total station points(occupy and backsight) then it is easier. first change the point number for the total station points to the same as the rtk points and when prompted to, merge the two points together. then delete the 'coordinates' from all the total station points, or even the whole project. before doing this you might want to create an office entered point for your rtk base station and make it control quality. you can also do it after the coordinate delete. if you use advance select, select all points, then in advanced select change to coordinates, apply then navigate in the project explorer into the drop down for one of the .job files right click and delete the highlighted 'coordinates'. now the starting point local coordinates for the total station should be deleted and because the point is merged to the rtk the observation data from the rtk shot should be applied and used for the total station setup. one more important thing, in project explorer or advanced select you are going to want to locate the 'azimuth record', this is the azimuth on the first total station setup. this will not shift so it needs to be deleted or disabled. after all this you should be able to compute the project and it should shift. at this point i would also do a network adjustment, and if it has not shifted yet, then you might need to do the network adjustment. 

the second scenario is when you have rtk on two points of the total station travers that are NOT the starting two points. this is a bit harder in that tbc needs starting points, even something rough(approximate), near where the total station two points begin. in the past i have just picked points in the general area and assigned them as office entered points with unknown quality to those two starting total station points. then do the above steps. you get flags saying those rough points are out, but since they are unknown quality they should not be applied, i forget exactly the next steps. you likely need to give control quality to the rtk shots and run network adjust, then reassign the office entered coordinates to the first total station setup to the adjusted ones. rerun the network adjust and hopefully the flags go away. 

if you still have vertical problems then there are many areas of error that can happen for those and it is a bit hard to trouble shoot without more info. but hopefully these steps get you started.

Hi Robert

Thanks for the input and advice. No other post from me I'm afraid. I'm new to the forum community and this was my first post. Not quite keen on how the forum works either if I'm honest...did a search for transforming and found the OP but when clicked on it didn't show any of the thread or replies. I've since done another search, changed the sort to by date and hey presto found the rest of the conversation and thus useful info to move forward.

I had observed all 3 of my ground control points with my GNSS receiver but had errors with 1 of them. I understand the workflow is best taken by GNSS observations, then traverse based off those, then detail capture. And this is my normal go to routine. However in this instance the client was tight on funds so I explained I can reduce time on site, and therefore costs (some money in is better than none according to my seniors ) by changing our methods slightly (GNSS capture on unoccupied stations, while detail being collected from the others, then rotating around) but I informed them I could not guarantee the accuracy of the output as we're not following standard practice. For what they needed the data for, this was an acceptable way of working. However it's now stumped me in TBC because I've not had to work this way in there before. Everything I've done in TBC so far has been by the book so to speak.

Your post sound familiar, maybe you had a duplicate post. A transformation requires 3 points to create a vertical plane, which may be why yours fails when you only locate 2 with GNSS.  You are best off starting your field observations with 2 GNSS points instead of having to mess with moving data after all observations are finished.

Hello

I have a question regarding the Transform Survey Feature in TBC.

When out in the field i set up the TS on E:1000.000 N:5000.000 H:100.000, i continue to do they survey. Once finished i shoot in the 2 control stations with the GPS as observed control points, 3 times each and average to get the coords, once back in the office when i transform the survey points to the GPS coordinates i get a vertical residual error every time, is this something i am doing wrong in the field or something i am doing wrong in TBC?

Any help on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Stevie

darren. happy it worked. always seems a bit harder than it could be. but that is ok. 

i am pretty sure you do not need to do traverse and network adjs. if you merge your closing total station points as you did with the "gcp" then network adj should adjust your angles/distances to suit. i actually have not used the traverse one so i am not sure if you are gaining something there. but our office did a lot of testing when we first switched to tbc and found the network adjs to do what we wanted.

for the cad points. most software seem to handle points in different ways. for going into civil3d we have a mirror or actually better points setup in civil and use description keys to draw points there. so from tbc we take feature code auto linework and also export csv to bring into cad. i don t have enough drafting experience in tbc to know if there are ways to do it there. but from other post i have read i do not think you can transfer the point data easily to other software. we export attributes as well and it mostly works. if you have photos hooked to points then this link gets lost or i don t know how to do it. there seems to be something funny with access and photo attributes that i will post on another thread. 

Hi Ian

Thanks for your input, very much appreciated. As it turns out, I'd worked it out as you have described through trial and error. Steps as follows:

• Create GNSS points named the same as local grid GCP's, set them to control quality.
• Import local grid survey data and merge points named the same
• Delete local co-ords from GCPs and azimuth, recompute the project.
• Create and adjust traverse to suit site workflow
• Adjust network
• Process feature codes

And hey presto, we're where we should be with good precision reports on the traverse and network adjustment.

Next thing I need to work out is why my point symbols appear as random text characters when exporting to CAD. I can't export points as block as I get an error for some reason. Also a bit miffed about how the orientation of labels work. 1 step below seem to be not in relation to string direction but to rotation of the display. Seems a daft way to do things and this may have been corrected in later releases that I don't have and won't get. Unless you can help with those too, I guess I'll have to create another thread.

Cheers again for your help 

we used to work this way all the time. so i know how to do it, but it has been a while now and there have been many versions of tbc since, still i don't think anything has changed. 

there are maybe other ways to do it, but this was our approach. 

there are two scenarios. if you have rtk ties to the two first total station points(occupy and backsight) then it is easier. first change the point number for the total station points to the same as the rtk points and when prompted to, merge the two points together. then delete the 'coordinates' from all the total station points, or even the whole project. before doing this you might want to create an office entered point for your rtk base station and make it control quality. you can also do it after the coordinate delete. if you use advance select, select all points, then in advanced select change to coordinates, apply then navigate in the project explorer into the drop down for one of the .job files right click and delete the highlighted 'coordinates'. now the starting point local coordinates for the total station should be deleted and because the point is merged to the rtk the observation data from the rtk shot should be applied and used for the total station setup. one more important thing, in project explorer or advanced select you are going to want to locate the 'azimuth record', this is the azimuth on the first total station setup. this will not shift so it needs to be deleted or disabled. after all this you should be able to compute the project and it should shift. at this point i would also do a network adjustment, and if it has not shifted yet, then you might need to do the network adjustment. 

the second scenario is when you have rtk on two points of the total station travers that are NOT the starting two points. this is a bit harder in that tbc needs starting points, even something rough(approximate), near where the total station two points begin. in the past i have just picked points in the general area and assigned them as office entered points with unknown quality to those two starting total station points. then do the above steps. you get flags saying those rough points are out, but since they are unknown quality they should not be applied, i forget exactly the next steps. you likely need to give control quality to the rtk shots and run network adjust, then reassign the office entered coordinates to the first total station setup to the adjusted ones. rerun the network adjust and hopefully the flags go away. 

if you still have vertical problems then there are many areas of error that can happen for those and it is a bit hard to trouble shoot without more info. but hopefully these steps get you started.

Hi Robert

Thanks for the input and advice. No other post from me I'm afraid. I'm new to the forum community and this was my first post. Not quite keen on how the forum works either if I'm honest...did a search for transforming and found the OP but when clicked on it didn't show any of the thread or replies. I've since done another search, changed the sort to by date and hey presto found the rest of the conversation and thus useful info to move forward.

I had observed all 3 of my ground control points with my GNSS receiver but had errors with 1 of them. I understand the workflow is best taken by GNSS observations, then traverse based off those, then detail capture. And this is my normal go to routine. However in this instance the client was tight on funds so I explained I can reduce time on site, and therefore costs (some money in is better than none according to my seniors ) by changing our methods slightly (GNSS capture on unoccupied stations, while detail being collected from the others, then rotating around) but I informed them I could not guarantee the accuracy of the output as we're not following standard practice. For what they needed the data for, this was an acceptable way of working. However it's now stumped me in TBC because I've not had to work this way in there before. Everything I've done in TBC so far has been by the book so to speak.

Your post sound familiar, maybe you had a duplicate post. A transformation requires 3 points to create a vertical plane, which may be why yours fails when you only locate 2 with GNSS.  You are best off starting your field observations with 2 GNSS points instead of having to mess with moving data after all observations are finished.

Hello

I have a question regarding the Transform Survey Feature in TBC.

When out in the field i set up the TS on E:1000.000 N:5000.000 H:100.000, i continue to do they survey. Once finished i shoot in the 2 control stations with the GPS as observed control points, 3 times each and average to get the coords, once back in the office when i transform the survey points to the GPS coordinates i get a vertical residual error every time, is this something i am doing wrong in the field or something i am doing wrong in TBC?

Any help on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Stevie

I'm guessing a lot of the "annoying" CAD and/or export issues are to do with compatibility. Us surveyors want a streamlined workflow from field to client in as few steps as possible. I gather Trimble would argue this is possible in TBC alone which is fair comment as it's their software and they'd want to corner the market into utilising TBC entirely for the process. Where it all falls down is the final product depending on what the client requirements are...if this is a CAD file to use in whatever X/Y/Z software then once the drawing/model is complete in TBC, it then needs to export to DWG as seen. Attributes, points symbols, blocks, linework the lot, with everything embedded within the file so that clients don't have to faff about their end and neither do we prior to issuing.

darren. happy it worked. always seems a bit harder than it could be. but that is ok. 

i am pretty sure you do not need to do traverse and network adjs. if you merge your closing total station points as you did with the "gcp" then network adj should adjust your angles/distances to suit. i actually have not used the traverse one so i am not sure if you are gaining something there. but our office did a lot of testing when we first switched to tbc and found the network adjs to do what we wanted.

for the cad points. most software seem to handle points in different ways. for going into civil3d we have a mirror or actually better points setup in civil and use description keys to draw points there. so from tbc we take feature code auto linework and also export csv to bring into cad. i don t have enough drafting experience in tbc to know if there are ways to do it there. but from other post i have read i do not think you can transfer the point data easily to other software. we export attributes as well and it mostly works. if you have photos hooked to points then this link gets lost or i don t know how to do it. there seems to be something funny with access and photo attributes that i will post on another thread. 

Hi Ian

Thanks for your input, very much appreciated. As it turns out, I'd worked it out as you have described through trial and error. Steps as follows:

• Create GNSS points named the same as local grid GCP's, set them to control quality.
• Import local grid survey data and merge points named the same
• Delete local co-ords from GCPs and azimuth, recompute the project.
• Create and adjust traverse to suit site workflow
• Adjust network
• Process feature codes

And hey presto, we're where we should be with good precision reports on the traverse and network adjustment.

Next thing I need to work out is why my point symbols appear as random text characters when exporting to CAD. I can't export points as block as I get an error for some reason. Also a bit miffed about how the orientation of labels work. 1 step below seem to be not in relation to string direction but to rotation of the display. Seems a daft way to do things and this may have been corrected in later releases that I don't have and won't get. Unless you can help with those too, I guess I'll have to create another thread.

Cheers again for your help 

we used to work this way all the time. so i know how to do it, but it has been a while now and there have been many versions of tbc since, still i don't think anything has changed. 

there are maybe other ways to do it, but this was our approach. 

there are two scenarios. if you have rtk ties to the two first total station points(occupy and backsight) then it is easier. first change the point number for the total station points to the same as the rtk points and when prompted to, merge the two points together. then delete the 'coordinates' from all the total station points, or even the whole project. before doing this you might want to create an office entered point for your rtk base station and make it control quality. you can also do it after the coordinate delete. if you use advance select, select all points, then in advanced select change to coordinates, apply then navigate in the project explorer into the drop down for one of the .job files right click and delete the highlighted 'coordinates'. now the starting point local coordinates for the total station should be deleted and because the point is merged to the rtk the observation data from the rtk shot should be applied and used for the total station setup. one more important thing, in project explorer or advanced select you are going to want to locate the 'azimuth record', this is the azimuth on the first total station setup. this will not shift so it needs to be deleted or disabled. after all this you should be able to compute the project and it should shift. at this point i would also do a network adjustment, and if it has not shifted yet, then you might need to do the network adjustment. 

the second scenario is when you have rtk on two points of the total station travers that are NOT the starting two points. this is a bit harder in that tbc needs starting points, even something rough(approximate), near where the total station two points begin. in the past i have just picked points in the general area and assigned them as office entered points with unknown quality to those two starting total station points. then do the above steps. you get flags saying those rough points are out, but since they are unknown quality they should not be applied, i forget exactly the next steps. you likely need to give control quality to the rtk shots and run network adjust, then reassign the office entered coordinates to the first total station setup to the adjusted ones. rerun the network adjust and hopefully the flags go away. 

if you still have vertical problems then there are many areas of error that can happen for those and it is a bit hard to trouble shoot without more info. but hopefully these steps get you started.

Hi Robert

Thanks for the input and advice. No other post from me I'm afraid. I'm new to the forum community and this was my first post. Not quite keen on how the forum works either if I'm honest...did a search for transforming and found the OP but when clicked on it didn't show any of the thread or replies. I've since done another search, changed the sort to by date and hey presto found the rest of the conversation and thus useful info to move forward.

I had observed all 3 of my ground control points with my GNSS receiver but had errors with 1 of them. I understand the workflow is best taken by GNSS observations, then traverse based off those, then detail capture. And this is my normal go to routine. However in this instance the client was tight on funds so I explained I can reduce time on site, and therefore costs (some money in is better than none according to my seniors ) by changing our methods slightly (GNSS capture on unoccupied stations, while detail being collected from the others, then rotating around) but I informed them I could not guarantee the accuracy of the output as we're not following standard practice. For what they needed the data for, this was an acceptable way of working. However it's now stumped me in TBC because I've not had to work this way in there before. Everything I've done in TBC so far has been by the book so to speak.

Your post sound familiar, maybe you had a duplicate post. A transformation requires 3 points to create a vertical plane, which may be why yours fails when you only locate 2 with GNSS.  You are best off starting your field observations with 2 GNSS points instead of having to mess with moving data after all observations are finished.

Hello

I have a question regarding the Transform Survey Feature in TBC.

When out in the field i set up the TS on E:1000.000 N:5000.000 H:100.000, i continue to do they survey. Once finished i shoot in the 2 control stations with the GPS as observed control points, 3 times each and average to get the coords, once back in the office when i transform the survey points to the GPS coordinates i get a vertical residual error every time, is this something i am doing wrong in the field or something i am doing wrong in TBC?

Any help on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Stevie